00:36
[Music]
00:58
[Music]
01:17
hi Michael can you hear me can you hear
01:27
me I can hear you great we just i was
01:35
waiting but something was wrong
01:36
technically no I put it at seven but the
01:42
actual time on the poster is 7:30 all
01:46
right okay one moment let me admit
01:50
everyone yeah I'm right right now I am
01:54
at the place literacy coffees welcome
01:59
everyone selamat datang bull reader I
02:04
will request to start your video as well
02:08
as your audio yeah sorry okay hi how are
02:12
you I'm Muhammad so what's what happened
02:16
we are supposed to start at 7:30 but
02:19
Arthur at 7:00 because sometimes people
02:23
want to get a little early okay sure
02:25
sure these into but if I'm not locked in
02:29
they won't be able to log in but one
02:32
minutes to 7:30 okay yeah so welcome
02:38
everyone Slama dot-com
02:40
this webinar will be in donation and
02:44
English so you can feel comfortable to
02:47
talk in both languages and I will
02:49
translate to the speakers should you
02:52
have any questions in Indonesian to be
02:56
asked to Michael Roberts here and let me
03:02
start I will start our agenda today is
03:05
brief introduction by me a surya element
03:09
a your host followed by presentation by
03:13
michael roberts on the global situation
03:16
Covey 19 prices especially later
03:22
touching a bit on Indonesia on the
03:25
economic aspect and you'll be presenting
03:27
lots of graphs lots of data here as he
03:31
is well known for and rida many many
03:36
graphs
03:37
yes yes I have given the participants on
03:42
the Facebook for Mohammed Zakir Hussain
03:44
I think the previous presentations for
03:48
South Africa in India and you can see a
03:51
lot of crafts there and rida at the
03:55
moment he is in Northwestern University
03:59
PhD student and he has written lots of
04:03
works later I will introduce him also in
04:05
my slides and he is also an editor I
04:08
think for left book review areeda and in
04:12
the progress and is a very prolific
04:14
writer author and I think we will enjoy
04:21
readers presentation later on especially
04:23
the political aspect of the topic and
04:29
Solutions or propose what is to be done
04:33
some sort of suggestions maybe and let
04:40
me 7:30 now let me share my screen
04:47
[Music]
04:49
sharing some overview here okay can you
04:55
see my screen Michael and Rita yes okay
04:59
so this is the slides I prepared today
05:05
and this is our topic let's go to slide
05:16
one yeah so copy nineteen crisis and
05:21
capitalism the unique solution case I
05:23
have lots of affiliation lots of names
05:27
also my full name on my idea dharmaja
05:30
Moynihan I have a surname dalla moon a
05:33
for sure because I'm usually asked for
05:36
first and last name so I like to put
05:39
Surya della montagne and the
05:42
organization for myself which I'm
05:45
organizing this is under the
05:46
intellectual independent initiation
05:49
independent intellectual I am at
05:52
literacy coffee you can see here behind
05:55
me the founder of literacy coffee yes
06:00
John Fowler and later also introduce him
06:03
and perhaps I think I will ask him to
06:06
speak also and literacy coffee and we
06:11
have today our presenters from a United
06:15
Kingdom and United States yeah Roberts
06:19
is located in UK and Rita is in u.s. so
06:24
this is literacy kefir now it's at 9:00
06:27
but on the top left you can see the day
06:32
view if you take a picture from outside
06:34
so it's very beautiful it's small it's
06:36
cozy and we have lots of murals of
06:41
famous indonesian
06:43
figures generation heroes including
06:46
those including many unnamed or yet to
06:52
be recognized as they must eschew yeah
06:54
Malaka there we have promoted area and
06:58
you can see below also an event attended
07:06
by many woman this is only our side view
07:10
of the place yeah and John is some sort
07:13
of enthusiasts of butter culture and you
07:17
can see he has a book up there on I
07:20
think his mother yeah so if John powers
07:31
here Hanyu there's the website literacy
07:33
coffee calm and let me go to the next
07:38
one
07:39
yeah so John's partner loose was tier II
07:44
you can see there she also founded women
07:49
today an organization called woman today
07:51
which often has many events here and
07:55
literacy coffee is funded independently
07:57
so they are always fundraising so you
08:00
can see the fundraise for fundraising
08:02
website or kita bisa which is a famous
08:04
in recent fundraising website and you
08:06
can access their website Facebook
08:09
Instagram and Twitter
08:11
yeah I think John can you John
08:15
he said initially so I will stop my
08:24
screen share and let John speak for us
08:27
here please John
09:00
okay I will translate to Michael yeah so
09:05
literacy coffee is some sort of an
09:07
archive it's a library especially
09:10
focusing on local Neos local culture
09:14
local arts local music and there are
09:18
very few such organization or
09:22
institution here in Madonna please
09:24
continue
09:56
so they have collected lots of works
09:59
they have organized more than 200 events
10:02
since their founding in 2017 and they
10:04
have hundreds of books since the 1800
10:08
collect archive here
10:58
so especially the cafe literacy coffee
11:03
and library they have helped lots of
11:05
students undergraduate students to
11:07
finish or to complete their
11:10
undergraduate thesis because they face
11:12
difficulties they own universities to
11:14
access sources to to do their thesis
11:21
look at your thesis
11:22
okay John perhaps one last minute here
11:24
for you I'm here
11:54
thank you very much John said that he
11:57
wishes our discussion to be very
11:58
fruitful very productive lots of ideas
12:03
and perhaps solutions can come from this
12:06
description so let me continue sharing
12:09
my screen on the introduction here so
12:12
Musti is there you can't see her but
12:14
she's there okay so this is our speakers
12:25
michael roberts who has written a very
12:28
rigorous book yeah fight of the long
12:31
depression Marxism and the global crisis
12:33
of capitalism basically Robert species
12:36
focuses on the profit trade here they
12:39
define in sort of permanent decline the
12:42
profit rate which causes evolutions in
12:45
capitalism all over the world and rida
12:49
he has written lots of words but I chose
12:52
one of his work here the state a
12:55
struggle and capitalist development in
12:57
the nations of Korea Marxist view and he
13:02
can be found independent that I came
13:05
here
13:05
edu slash Vida and of course in the
13:08
progress so basically we will go I will
13:13
go we will go through the common 19
13:16
crisis capitalism and perhaps cure if
13:18
there is any yeah so this is for a
13:24
common nine in so I will talk with an
13:29
anecdote within the first few months two
13:32
of my friends have died from the disease
13:35
another two friends currently been
13:37
isolated and my dad at the moment is in
13:40
the hospital specialized hospital in
13:42
Madan 40
13:44
copy 19 disease yeah he has been there
13:46
for two weeks he's recovering thank God
13:49
so let's praying for his full recovery
13:52
which is
13:53
hope to be another few weeks and so I I
14:00
am several friends met the mayor of
14:03
Madonna two weeks ago and he said that
14:07
the cost for a patient being admitted or
14:11
being treated at the hospital is about
14:15
70 million rupiah from the start until
14:18
the end until until be when the patient
14:23
is deemed to be cured but just now I
14:25
heard an information from a source from
14:28
the governor yeah this now up to 240
14:32
million rupiah so this is about perhaps
14:36
six seven thousand or five thousand to
14:40
twenty thousand dollars and it's very
14:46
funny in Indonesia that we are so called
14:52
entering the new normal at the age or
14:54
the year of new normal but in my town in
14:59
fact it has never been meaning we have
15:05
never experienced something other than
15:07
the ordinary so we continue to go out
15:10
and even the minister to ministers
15:13
recently came to Maidan and they said
15:18
that seems that madam has returned to
15:21
normality whereas as we know in Milan
15:25
that the large-scale social distancing
15:30
has never been properly monitored so
15:32
people are free to go out and interact
15:35
as before the disease started and last
15:40
but not least right now we are
15:45
experiencing what we call some sort of
15:51
local and global capitalism yeah in a
15:56
sense that right now since the loss of
15:59
institutions are commercializing the
16:02
disease by conducting rapid tests and
16:08
some for example some airlines even they
16:12
offer discounted repeat test and at the
16:16
hospital the price for the rapid test is
16:19
about $30 which is well the d-10 a few
16:24
thousand rupiah but if you go to another
16:26
region by airline if you go to the
16:30
airport they offer rapid test discount
16:32
or every test 90 thousand so you wonder
16:35
about the effectiveness and my brother's
16:38
recently because of my dad
16:41
they were the ones who brought my dad to
16:43
the hospital so he had to undergo a PCR
16:45
a swab test here and it cost about two
16:48
million rupiah so this is a very
16:51
expensive disease and lots of problems
16:55
caused by the disease in terms of how it
16:58
is being capitalized seems to be
17:00
capitalized by Indonesian institutions
17:02
and organizations including the
17:04
government's yeah and so you have PDP is
17:12
an Indonesian term for patient under
17:14
observation here passing the eponymous
17:17
on ODP is around element power and
17:20
people who are being asked isolate
17:22
themselves and OTG is around contrada
17:24
jolla people without symptoms these are
17:27
these are this is the most dangerous
17:28
because they exhibit no symptom
17:32
therefore they are free to move around
17:33
and they're the ones who spread the
17:35
disease to those who system are weak so
17:41
far 74,000 people confirmed to suffer
17:45
from the of it 19 disease in indonesia
17:47
about 35,000 719 people have recovered
17:51
and sadly 3535 people have died so we
17:58
have a crisis in local government budget
18:00
all over Indonesia especially in our
18:02
city because the body has been much
18:04
reduced because local tax receive has
18:07
been much reduced and lots of regions in
18:09
Indonesia they must conduct regular
18:11
election and they have no funding for
18:13
this because there even if they have
18:16
funding they must increase funding
18:18
because it is planned there all the
18:20
election officers should wear
18:22
years the boots are being redesigned
18:26
accomodate social distancing procedures
18:28
no sorry physical distance across videos
18:31
and therefore a budget for
18:35
infrastructure innovation infrastructure
18:38
is very bad so you have to have
18:41
maintenance budget every year to
18:44
maintain the infrastructure now they are
18:47
not being maintained because the body
18:48
has been redirected to tackle the copy
18:51
19 crisis so we can see in our city for
18:54
example loss more flooding and crumbling
18:58
roads broken roads here and everywhere
19:03
actually
19:04
SBA is in donation for last scale social
19:07
restriction so this has ended
19:10
effectively the police police of
19:15
Indonesia stated that this has ended so
19:17
people are free to mix around to go out
19:19
but it is not effective even given the
19:23
social restriction period it was more
19:26
effective and now we can see the number
19:29
of people has skyrocketed who suffers or
19:32
who contracts disease unemployment of
19:35
course increase by a lot this is the
19:39
largest or the most number of projection
19:44
by Lippe up to 25 million people will be
19:47
unemployed by the end of 2020 I have
19:49
resources if you want I can send it to
19:51
you later
19:51
so lots of conflicts on the streets one
19:55
darling not all the region Regency
20:00
people walk the roads the local citizens
20:03
their local people they block the roads
20:05
because they complain that they don't
20:06
receive assistance as much as they
20:09
should and also in Java lots of similar
20:14
cases demonstrations regarding the
20:17
financial systems and for assistance and
20:22
direct stimulus to the people have been
20:25
recommended by economies intellectuals
20:28
elites of all ideologies but the
20:32
government seems not
20:34
here all these recommendations even the
20:37
mainstream the so-called new classical
20:40
or neo liberal intellectuals or
20:43
economies they have recommended direct
20:45
stimulus here to the people but these
20:47
suggestions have been unheeded so far
20:50
let me meet these people here alright
20:58
and now to the capitalism aspect of our
21:05
topic so I would like to begin by saying
21:08
that voting this around 1600 some of the
21:10
richest parts of the world were in East
21:12
China Indonesia India and Japan this is
21:18
by Roger band's Annenberg the struggle
21:21
for power in critical Muslim that spread
21:26
here he has written on the history of
21:28
capitalism in Indonesia recently is only
21:32
la no fee the Netherlands and the
21:34
colonisation of inner Asia 8 June 2020
21:37
and a few days ago
21:39
or perhaps I want me to go about
21:43
bootyman - near the dark history of
21:46
slavery and racism Indonesia during the
21:48
Dutch or a new period so historical
21:52
materialism in a sense that path
21:55
dependence here
21:56
what Indonesia today is decided or
21:58
dependent on its previous path even we
22:02
must understand malicious history
22:05
especially in materially to understand
22:08
what is our real problem and how to
22:13
solve it yeah
22:19
so here this is from elec golden delayed
22:23
elect worden lots of foreign experts
22:27
bday historians or economies they
22:31
described in Alicia not I think not
22:34
objectively
22:35
for example Gordon criticized in his
22:37
review of this book an economic history
22:40
of Indonesia 1800 to 2010 by famous
22:42
Dutch historians economists comienza en
22:45
route and went under and historian Dan
22:48
Mars so he said that in his review this
22:51
authors say that the not the 1945 1965
22:55
extinction at the lost decades so Gordon
22:58
delayed electrode and criticized to whom
23:00
where or this day gets lost and Gordon
23:05
suggested that the loss during that
23:07
period revolution a period was
23:09
imperialism's and similar book here the
23:14
Indonesian economy in the 19th century
23:17
and 20th centuries history of missed
23:19
opportunities my in both here so miss
23:23
opportunities why who missed these
23:26
opportunities so we must find other
23:29
books fortunately there are many other
23:31
books on Indonesian economic history
23:34
which can enlighten us by Thomas Lin
23:38
black by Howard dick I think by even it
23:41
can we we can get the facts from those
23:47
books even though perhaps interpretation
23:49
may not be to our liking yeah and Gordon
23:53
computer by saying that this book has
23:57
neglected any real engagement with
23:58
Marcion new Marxian and despondency
24:01
theories and it's merely a contribution
24:03
to what is the narrative research
24:05
program that characterizes modern
24:07
neoclassical economics so we really
24:10
really need an engagement here in the
24:12
nation especially because of our history
24:14
with Marcion a new Marcion and system
24:19
here is dependency theorists to be able
24:21
to diagnose in delicious problems and to
24:25
offer useful solutions here here on the
24:30
right side go
24:32
estimates of the amount of surplus
24:36
extract of Malaysia during the colonial
24:38
period yeah their fight works there and
24:41
I think this is yeah I think this is my
24:46
last slide yeah in turn so Andy he's her
24:49
bow barely changed the new economy
24:51
imperialism so this is this book has
24:54
worn worn many Lords here only the one
24:59
minister there so this will examine the
25:01
exploitation of labour and class in the
25:03
global south using Indonesia as a case
25:06
study here using Indonesian suppliers
25:08
and it is very interesting because this
25:11
book examined concrete processes through
25:14
which multinational corporations located
25:17
primarily in the global North capture
25:18
value from the global South yeah
25:20
how they enforce economical and flexible
25:23
production including labor management
25:24
methods aim to reassert the Imperial
25:27
dominance north while continue the
25:29
dependency of the global South and this
25:34
power must be broken if the global
25:36
working class if the in nation working
25:39
class is to liberate ourselves here and
25:42
this yield book is very useful because
25:44
it puts labor and class back at the
25:46
center of understanding of the world
25:48
capitalist system especially now in
25:51
Indonesia we have the Omnibus laws you
25:54
know which makes it easier for
25:56
investments for their investments
25:58
foreign capital to enter Indonesia and
26:01
lots of protests but it seems that the
26:05
government and the the executive branch
26:08
and the legislative branch of the nation
26:10
government's continues to power to to to
26:13
force the law to be issued to be
26:18
released within a hundred days so within
26:21
one or two months you can expect this
26:22
law to be ratified by the so this is
26:26
very worried so I hope with all this
26:29
analysis later even if we do not come up
26:33
with solutions we can see some solutions
26:35
or we can imagine at least what are the
26:39
real problem we can imagine at least the
26:41
solutions barrier problems facing us now
26:45
thank you very much
26:46
I will ask the floor or the webinar to
26:53
microrobots please well thank you Surya
27:02
for an opening a account of the general
27:06
issues involved in what's happened in
27:09
Indonesia for that matter what's
27:11
happened in the global South and clearly
27:14
there's quite a lot of literature that
27:16
you've collected and other people have
27:18
which can explain a lot of the history
27:21
of not only Indonesian capitalism and
27:26
its its suppression by global
27:31
imperialism but also the rest of the
27:33
world as well what I want to do in my
27:36
contribution to this very very useful
27:39
discussion it's not often you get an
27:41
opportunity to discuss with people on
27:43
the ground in various parts of the world
27:45
but particularly Indonesia in this case
27:47
about what's going on and how that's
27:50
affecting a major economy because
27:52
Indonesia has 270 million people I think
27:57
to the latest figures and it's a member
27:59
of the g20 which is the club of the top
28:03
19 economies that was xx since the
28:06
European Union that meets on occasion to
28:10
discuss world affairs and in particular
28:13
discuss the strategy for International
28:16
capitals and Indonesia
28:17
is part of that one of the if you like
28:20
major
28:43
anyway so what I want to talk about is
28:47
what's happening in global capitalism
28:49
under the Code vid how that's affecting
28:52
Indonesian capitalism and the economy
28:55
there and the people in it and then
28:57
perhaps with Mohammed's discussion
29:00
coming through later we'll have a much
29:02
more comprehensive picture on the issues
29:05
that we need to discuss so like Fourier
29:10
I'm going to try and share as free
29:11
without any mistakes I hope this works
29:13
and the coast needs to allow me to share
29:17
the screen on plots off at the moment
29:19
Surya can you release that now I'm still
29:30
disabled from my screen Surya you need
29:35
to release the screen to everybody yeah
29:44
that's it can you know okay yeah we're
29:51
fine you should be able to see it now
30:06
right can you see that yeah okay so let
30:12
me start by talking about the current
30:14
situation and we know in the world there
30:16
has been a major lockdown of nearly all
30:19
the economies in the world as a result
30:21
of the spread of the Kovach 19 virus and
30:24
the inability of health systems around
30:26
the world to cope with it and to avoid
30:29
massive increase in deaths and serious
30:32
illness for a load petite people
30:35
particularly old people people already
30:37
have medical problems with sweets so
30:39
this is false governments with
30:41
inadequate health systems to introduce
30:44
full or partial lock downs and as of
30:46
last month something like 2.7 million
30:49
workers were affected by a fall or a
30:50
coterie lock down 81 percent of the
30:54
world's 3.3 billion workers were
30:56
affected by that even in countries where
30:59
on the whole infection rates have been
31:01
low and death rates even low this
31:06
lockdown unprecedented unparalleled we
31:09
haven't seen anything like this
31:11
originally it was thought it was going
31:12
to be a contraction of about 3 to 5
31:14
percent in global GDP the latest
31:17
estimates by the IMF the OEC and the
31:20
World Bank suggest it's going to be even
31:22
higher than that main work and certainly
31:25
worse than the Great Recession of 2008 9
31:28
in the lockdowns output in most
31:32
economies according to the OSC will fall
31:34
by 25 percent this year and up to
31:38
one-third in some of the sectors in the
31:40
major economies I'll show you later the
31:44
latest estimates for 2020 whether
31:46
they're truly staggering in the
31:48
reduction in GDP by the end of the year
31:52
and for each month one containment which
31:54
has been on average about three months
31:56
there's going to be a loss of two
31:58
percentage points in annual GDP the
32:02
short-term collapse in this output
32:04
according to one American economists is
32:08
equivalent and of passing anything we've
32:11
seen in the last 150 years that also
32:15
applies in so far as we can see later on
32:18
to the figures
32:20
and according to the IMF chief
32:22
crystallinity over we now protected over
32:26
170 countries will experience negative
32:28
per capita income growth that means that
32:31
the income per person in the country
32:33
will fall during 2020 in over 170
32:37
countries and that includes Indonesia as
32:40
and one of the clear things that comes
32:43
to me from this reading and following
32:47
marks is he makes a very simple point
32:50
that value what's produced and what
32:53
people can create in order to improve
32:55
their living and also the profits of
32:58
capitalism depends primarily on people
33:01
going to work there is no other way in
33:03
which you can produce value and as mark
33:06
says every child knows if a nation
33:08
ceases to work even if it's not per year
33:10
but even for just a few months months or
33:13
weeks would perish and that's certainly
33:15
been proven by this
33:17
Kovach prices and the lockdown that's
33:20
taken place if there's one thing we've
33:23
learned from Cogan immediately is that
33:25
it's up to two human beings and
33:27
particularly working people who set the
33:29
tone for improvements in livingstone and
33:31
conditions and social needs in around
33:34
the world it's not to to the people who
33:37
appropriate that value are distributed
33:40
amongst themselves and live off it only
33:43
labor creates value and we've seen it
33:46
the point I want to make is that this
33:49
pandemic was not a bolt out of the blue
33:52
it was not like an asteroid hitting the
33:55
earth it couldn't have been expected it
33:58
pandemics have been increasing for the
34:00
last 25 30 years as new viruses which
34:04
haven't come into the contact with human
34:07
beings have started to affect this has
34:10
come about through the industrialization
34:12
of most of the world
34:14
logging oil exploration industrial
34:18
farming all those things many of which
34:20
you experience in Indonesia has led to
34:23
the more remote parts of the world and
34:26
where there are wild animals have been
34:27
keeping these pathogens in their bodies
34:29
for thousands of years have now become
34:32
closer to human
34:33
Conte and it seems through a process of
34:36
jumping from wild animals into a
34:39
domesticated animals industrial
34:41
production and farming and then into
34:43
food markets that these pan these
34:46
pathogens have began to enter human
34:48
bodies have been a series this is just
34:51
the latest one and there are probably
34:52
more to come the United Nations have
34:55
will at least pandemics for coming but
34:57
most countries and governments ignored
34:59
that thought they can carry on just as
35:02
before I didn't need to prepare for such
35:04
pandemics and so they were hit hard when
35:07
it did did it happen but the other
35:09
reason we have to remember why there has
35:12
been such a Sun is not just the pandemic
35:14
and the virus but also the fact that on
35:18
the whole world economy major economies
35:21
in the world were slowing down over this
35:23
longest period we've seen since the
35:26
Great Recession of 2009 in a 10-year
35:28
period of expansion of the longest
35:31
expansion on record but the weakest
35:33
expansion it's been a very low growth
35:35
rate very no investment rate very low
35:38
productivity very low wage increases on
35:41
the whole internationally another is and
35:43
yet just as we got to 2019 growth was
35:46
staying down in most of the major
35:48
economies at least of the global North
35:51
to under 2% heading towards one percent
35:54
well Europe was virtually in recession
35:57
Japan was in a slump and even the
35:59
emerging economies like Indonesia and
36:02
others were slowing down as well as the
36:05
figures will show in a minute so we were
36:07
already entering probably a new economic
36:09
slump and the pandemic and the lockdowns
36:12
have just exhilarated and been
36:14
concentrated and extended that process
36:16
not only in depth but also in BRIC
36:19
further over virtually the whole world
36:22
for the first time has been involved in
36:24
a slump and we can see here in this
36:26
figure there's been the global economy
36:30
has just dropped off a cliff edge both
36:33
the advanced economies have gone
36:35
negative and for the first time since
36:38
the 1960s emerging economies have gone
36:41
negative in 2020 here's a graph by the
36:45
OECD of each
36:47
country in their expensive declining
36:49
growth you can see on the left hand side
36:51
something like 10 to 12 percent of scale
36:54
is missing but it's around 10 to 12
36:56
percent from Spain France Italy the UK
36:59
and then if you work down the list you
37:01
will find all the other countries all in
37:04
a negative area including India down the
37:06
bottom there for the very first time and
37:08
as we'll see also and the part of the
37:13
reason it's affected not just the
37:15
advanced capitalist economies we'll all
37:17
as he did in the Great Recession 2008 9
37:20
it's also this time we seen a massive
37:22
collapse in trade
37:23
I mean commodity prices already
37:25
beginning before the Kovan but now
37:29
extended to a huge drop in trade and
37:32
commodity prices and and for countries
37:37
like Indonesia for countries like most
37:41
of the commodity country resource based
37:43
countries in Latin America then this is
37:46
serious this means that even if the code
37:49
is not expensive in their own country it
37:52
means they can sell them or else because
37:54
products are prices of collapsed rain
37:56
has collapsed so this is just a
37:59
contagion effect across the world and
38:01
here for the first time we get an
38:03
estimate that emerging markets GDP
38:05
growth will be negative in 2020 the
38:07
first time as I say
38:08
since certainly since the early 1960s if
38:12
not before since reliable records began
38:13
we don't really have records for
38:15
so-called emerging markets until the
38:19
last 60 or 70 years and we can see that
38:22
for the first time they are entering a
38:24
negative period and by the way that
38:26
developing economy slump includes China
38:29
India the two biggest global South
38:33
economies which in the Great Recession
38:35
certainly in the case of China remained
38:38
positive in their growth rates during
38:40
the period of the Great Recession and
38:42
India more or less two now both of those
38:45
have been forced into a fall in GDP in
38:49
2020 and yet the Kovach pandemic is not
38:54
over he's the latest figures I think
38:56
from yesterday which show that daily new
38:59
cases on
39:00
they moving average the left-hand chart
39:01
are over 200,000 a day now on average
39:06
which is indication that the infection
39:08
continues to spread particularly in
39:11
countries where there's no real attempt
39:12
now to try and control contain it like
39:16
the United States but also spreading to
39:19
other countries which up to now hasn't
39:21
had it before South Africa India Brazil
39:24
Latin America in general and on the
39:27
right hand side you can see the daily
39:29
deaths still remain above 5,000 a day on
39:32
average yes they've come down a little
39:34
bit but if you look closely you can see
39:36
there isn't really much of a fall in the
39:39
death rate as it expands across the
39:41
world so we're seeing deaths per day
39:43
remaining very high because of the
39:46
increasing number of cases figures we
39:51
can see this the same thing that the
39:53
pack endemic is writing in daily new
39:57
cases cases per day now up close to is
40:02
that two thousands a day some of the
40:05
latest figures still rising cause deaths
40:08
aren't very high we know that the reason
40:11
for this is probably two reasons one it
40:15
seems that anybody under the age of 50
40:17
around 40 doesn't who doesn't have any
40:20
medical problem existing already is
40:22
unlikely to be severely affected by
40:25
being infected with the Kovach 19 virus
40:29
and all those who have some medical
40:31
problem or are pension and old like
40:34
myself are in serious risk of getting
40:37
severely ill being hospitalized and
40:40
possibly dying so while death while the
40:43
cases spreads areas where the population
40:46
is relatively younger then death daily
40:49
deaths appear to be not rising at the
40:51
same ratio so far but of course many
40:54
countries that have lots of young people
40:57
also had lots of unhealthy people
41:00
because of the conditions under which
41:01
they live so there's a real danger when
41:04
the death rate could start to rise if
41:07
the pandemic continues to spread in
41:10
Wales so point being made here is that
41:12
the global pan
41:14
as of July 2020 having started in
41:18
January is not over maybe under
41:22
controlling countries most countries in
41:24
Europe but it's still there in the case
41:26
of the United States Latin America it's
41:28
still increasing sharply and in Asia
41:30
there's also some signs that pick up in
41:33
those countries which are able to
41:34
control here is the latest death per
41:37
million of kovin 19 you can see just
41:42
about yellow block there that's the
41:44
deaths per million in the US and the UK
41:47
400 deaths per million of the population
41:50
the u.s. has 350 million or so so you
41:54
can add that up to get your total number
41:56
of deaths but 408 deaths per million UK
41:59
is at 657 deaths per million the
42:03
second-highest so Asian death rates per
42:07
million are much much lower but you can
42:10
see if you want to take it within the
42:11
area of the Asian region that Indonesia
42:14
is relatively high compared to other
42:16
countries like Japan Korea Thailand
42:19
Taiwan and Vietnam and China of course
42:22
vote when pandemic started is actually
42:25
very countries like India are not really
42:30
controlling the pandemic so this per
42:33
million are continuing to rise there as
42:35
patients rights and it looks as though
42:37
Indonesia may be in the same boat as the
42:40
Philippines and this is the big point
42:43
about the economic this lockdown is just
42:46
certain to drive up poverty levels
42:49
around the world particularly in the
42:51
global south there possibly
42:54
according to the World Bank something
42:57
like half a million people could be
42:58
driven back below the World Bank's
43:02
poverty line as a result of the
43:04
lockdowns of the economic collapse the
43:07
World Bank's poverty lines by the way of
43:09
$1 90 per day is pathetically low
43:12
nobody impossibly Tribune on that except
43:15
staff a more realistic figure of $5 50
43:19
per person for a day would suggest that
43:23
even more people could be driven into
43:26
policy as a result
43:27
of the 20% collapse in the incomes of
43:32
the poorest people in East Asia has half
43:34
of that half billion and South Asia
43:37
another hundred and twenty eight billion
43:40
according to these figures that's an
43:42
indication well seriously there's four
43:45
people's at home industry driven with
43:49
work closing down I'm already close to
43:51
the poverty line
43:53
an Indian either is not a rich country
43:56
if you look at the GDP figures per
43:59
person here ranked by the IMF and the
44:03
World Bank you can see that in Southeast
44:06
Asia Indonesia has about thirty fourteen
44:09
thousand dollars per person income or
44:13
national income that's the income per
44:15
capita fourteen thousand dollars way
44:18
less than Thailand Malaysia and only
44:22
somewhat above the Philippines and other
44:25
countries there and in China for example
44:28
with one and a half billion people on
44:30
for three billion people is way way
44:33
better off per person so this Indonesia
44:37
is still struggling to provide the basic
44:41
needs of its 270 million people and the
44:45
other ones working in that environment
44:46
and now we have the code it's not even
44:49
really hard it's estimated that 60% of
44:53
the world's employed population are in
44:55
the informal economy so that means they
44:57
don't have salaries or wages coming
45:02
directly from employers the world
45:07
recorded its little done by cashing on a
45:09
casual employment basis or a temporary
45:12
basis or limiting contracts a cash
45:15
economy which puts means there is no
45:17
backup in terms of sick pain welfare
45:20
benefits or any support if you lose your
45:23
job or you lose your livelihood in your
45:25
business and all the countries in
45:28
selected Beijing countries have this
45:30
very high level of informal sector
45:32
including Indonesia something like two
45:34
thirds of Indonesian workers are in the
45:38
informal sector which is a state
45:41
- because it means that they are very
45:44
very vulnerable to this collapse in
45:46
economic prosperity in addition
45:51
Indonesia is one of the most unequal
45:53
societies if you look at the chart on
45:57
the left-hand side you can see that
45:59
there are some countries where the
46:00
richest 1% higher which is one cent in
46:04
Russia have 75 percent of all the wealth
46:07
personal wealth in that economy India
46:11
the richest 1% have 58 percent but
46:14
Indonesia is also very high nearly half
46:17
of the personal wealth in Indonesia is
46:21
held by the top 1% and if you look on
46:23
the right-hand side you can see the top
46:26
10% of the Gini index which is the
46:28
measure of inequality and Indonesia in
46:31
been looking at across Southeast Asia is
46:34
nearly as high as Thailand in this level
46:38
of wealth inequality were what people
46:42
have as their positions whether it's
46:44
home whether it's some articles that car
46:49
and so on or even a very unlikely some
46:53
savings in the bank or stocks and shares
46:56
the result is of course all that wealth
46:58
is concentrated in a very very small
47:01
number of people so the vast majority of
47:03
people have been easier and in other
47:05
countries own little or nothing and a
47:08
very very small number of people
47:09
virtually everything here is the
47:13
increment that's the inequality of
47:15
income in Indonesia with two lines
47:19
showing where the Asian financial crisis
47:21
was in one through nine eight and then
47:23
the global financial crash of 2008 9 and
47:26
you can see the inequality ratio which
47:30
is the GED ratio had been increasing in
47:33
Indonesia
47:34
since the beginning of this century and
47:37
reached the height in the 2015 period
47:39
it's come down a little bit since then
47:41
but it still really had record highs in
47:45
terms of inequality compared to where
47:48
Indonesia was even back in the nineteen
47:50
from the terrible days of the nineteen
47:53
seventies so
47:54
equality wealth inequality of income
47:57
everybody living on the margin with
48:00
informal employment this is the
48:02
situation for the vast majority of
48:04
working people in Indonesia as this
48:07
covent pandemic and these global slum
48:09
kids and one of the issues here is that
48:12
if you have an informal economy
48:14
hardly anybody pays any taxes because
48:16
everything is cash nothing goes through
48:19
to be recorded to be taxed but even more
48:22
important basically the Indonesian
48:25
government does not tax the rich they
48:27
hold most of the wealth they hold most
48:30
of the income but they're not really
48:32
taxed the tax to GDP ratio is the lowest
48:36
in much of the major Asian economies
48:40
around it's not very high even in India
48:43
and China at 16 or 20 percent tax to GDP
48:47
ratio ratios by the way Europe is
48:52
anything between 25 and 40 percent but
48:55
the ratios in these countries is well
48:58
below a 20% in case of Indonesia
49:00
it was hardly above 10 percent so that
49:02
the government has no money to spend to
49:04
improve conditions for the common good
49:06
he was going to use use the money for
49:09
because it doesn't get much tax out of
49:12
very rich mainly and because everybody
49:15
else struggles to make a living
49:16
tries to avoid paying taxes best they
49:18
can so here we are right now in the
49:22
Kovan into 2020 you can see the last GDP
49:26
growth figures we have for Indonesia
49:27
isn't it sliding fast it's to the
49:29
positive but I can assure you by the
49:31
time we get the figures for the second
49:34
quarter of this year which ended in June
49:36
just a couple of weeks ago then we'll
49:39
see a negative growth rate in Indonesia
49:41
like elsewhere and then we'll see where
49:43
they can struggle to turn that around
49:45
given the world trade and commodity
49:48
prices continue to flounder and
49:49
Indonesia's basic support for growth
49:55
will not be there to continue with trade
49:58
world trade economic activity that's the
50:01
measuring of activity coming parado by
50:04
indonesian manufacturers and service
50:07
sector has just
50:08
two tracks it's a little bit of a
50:10
recovery month or so but you can see
50:12
it's well well below normal though
50:14
anything above 50 means some sort of
50:17
growth activity anything below 15 you
50:21
listen mix means a serious contraction
50:23
and the further down you are the faster
50:26
isn't crack as long as you if you're
50:28
still under 50 and the economy is still
50:30
contracting so even though that food
50:33
gets jumped a little bit it is still
50:34
means that the in degrees the economy is
50:36
coming down and we will see in the
50:39
second quarter the results with that and
50:41
of course Indonesian households have
50:43
stopped spending for two reasons they
50:45
haven't got any money because they're
50:47
not working large numbers of them I
50:49
think Sharia says something like 25%
50:51
unemployment but also I'm afraid to
50:56
spend money on things that otherwise we
50:59
put them at risk of getting infection
51:01
when they go out traveling whether it's
51:03
meeting other people at consults
51:05
consumer spending just like in many
51:07
other countries has collapsed at the
51:09
issues but if that doesn't come back and
51:12
manufacturing doesn't back and exports
51:15
don't come back then you're in for a
51:17
serious damage to the you come and this
51:20
is a commodity based economy here's a
51:22
little graph which shows you in the top
51:24
right hand corner that 23 percent of
51:27
India's GDP comes from mineral fuels
51:30
oils distillation products you know
51:33
better than me
51:34
what that means the sort of industry
51:37
that Indonesia has as its base to create
51:40
value but also another nevins income
51:43
through the various agricultural base
51:45
basic products oils and so on which had
51:48
come from land and which are exploited
51:50
and then you can see also top right hand
51:53
corner
51:54
various minerals and so on Saudi that
51:57
all that together you're getting
51:58
something like 40 to 45 percent of the
52:01
economy depends on basic fuel soils
52:05
agricultural and oil products and the
52:08
prices of all of those have taken a huge
52:10
plummet in the last six months and
52:13
unless they return in Indonesia's
52:16
reasonable growth rate which is had to
52:19
try and match this fast-growing
52:21
population of free
52:22
five percent a year over the last ten
52:24
years is in serious jeopardy not just
52:26
this year but in future years and the
52:30
problem is that although in Indonesia
52:33
depends on the capitalist sector to get
52:36
its volume up by the exploitation of
52:39
workers involved in that that hapless
52:41
sector is really not making much of a
52:43
return the multinationals and Indonesia
52:47
are increasingly finding it difficult to
52:49
get a decent profit as they expand the
52:53
level of machinery plant equipment they
52:56
apply relative to labor lot of the
53:00
industries that the multinationals have
53:02
invested in entities who don't require
53:05
because their oil refineries and other
53:08
products on where they do they don't
53:11
return the sort of return expected
53:13
that's specifically the case since the
53:16
Asian financial crisis that we can see
53:18
back before that
53:20
going way back this is if you like the
53:23
rate of profit for Indonesian capital in
53:25
the economy as a whole was averaging
53:27
around about 20 percent compared to the
53:31
investments after the invasion Asian
53:34
financial crash there was a huge job and
53:36
there hasn't really been any recovery
53:38
that means is extremely difficult for
53:42
Indonesian capital to recover from this
53:44
slump on its own it requires a massive
53:47
bailout or it requires actually the
53:50
removal of Indonesian capital and its
53:52
replacement by government and state
53:55
investment to boost the economy
53:57
if Indonesia continues to rely on
54:00
incentives through Indonesian capital
54:02
and the multinationals to try them get
54:04
them out of the slump because the
54:05
profitability is so low they will not
54:08
get the responding investment that they
54:09
require to boost growth boost
54:12
productivity and create new jobs at
54:15
reasonable rates for not just on the
54:17
informal economy they will stand alone
54:19
and the same way they have done for the
54:21
last for 25 years
54:23
corporate profitability from according
54:26
to the IMF staff estimates you can see
54:28
confirms the previous graph you can
54:30
sleep slipping from eighty percent also
54:33
called its neonate from 2011 down
54:36
recovery now with 20 20 20 19 it fell
54:39
2024 more we have not City continues to
54:43
decline we keep very difficult to see
54:45
much improvement we can expect in
54:48
capitalist production in Deniz and the
54:52
other issue is when if the prices of
54:55
your exports are collapsing but you
54:57
still have to pay that debt that you've
55:01
built up previously with through
55:03
investment or through corporations
55:06
bringing in investment or government
55:11
borrowing money or companies borrowing
55:12
money from international banks in order
55:14
to grow then private external debt has
55:17
increased across the board in various
55:19
sectors on the left-hand graph there
55:21
over the last 10 to 15 years since the
55:23
Great Recession and that debt is already
55:26
dollars if the group here has been
55:28
collapsing which it has because of
55:30
commodity prices then that debt is very
55:32
much more difficult to pay and they can
55:34
see on the right hand scale you know MF
55:36
can see an increase in them problem
55:39
opens companies in even before we get to
55:42
the code we're starting to have
55:44
difficulty in Indonesia in meeting their
55:46
debts despite low interest rates because
55:48
everything is measured in dollars and if
55:51
they can't pay back their loans with
55:52
dollars then they're in danger of
55:55
defaulting on their debt or not paying
55:57
at the time good impression on the banks
55:59
and now with a fall in production trade
56:03
and commodity prices that red line on
56:07
the right-hand scale is going to shoot
56:08
up and the overall bars on the left hand
56:12
sail are also going to shoot up
56:14
increasing the pressure and difficulty
56:16
of meeting fits what help are they
56:19
getting the IMF may be able to offer the
56:21
money in the crisis but it'll be limited
56:23
and that will put them probably under
56:25
pressure to meet the terms of the IMF
56:28
which will require paying that back over
56:30
time so it puts tremendous pressure on
56:32
the Indonesian national economy if it's
56:35
placed in the position where it has to
56:36
go into an IMF program in order to try
56:39
and meet the external debt figures we
56:41
did see here and the void too much rise
56:43
in problem loans can you can the
56:47
government spend money to boost the
56:50
economy there's a capitalist sector one
56:52
if you look down this list they've been
56:54
some huge increases in fiscal spending
56:57
by many European and global North
57:00
countries in trying to bail out both
57:02
companies and workers to some extent and
57:06
try and keep the economy going to look
57:09
if you look on the right-hand side you
57:11
can see it's mainly global South or
57:14
emerging economies that means that they
57:16
just don't have the funds to spend in
57:19
order to compensate for the loss of jobs
57:22
lock down the closure of production
57:25
Indonesia's only spending guns been 2.6
57:29
percent of GDP and you can compare that
57:31
to say the u.s. is 8 percent of Hong
57:35
Kong at 10 percent Indonesia is not
57:38
under musician to make this sort of
57:39
spending that would get them out through
57:42
government invest in your government
57:43
spending they just don't have the
57:45
resources and the international
57:47
organization through the IMF World Bank
57:49
and so on or the Asian Development Bank
57:51
cannot provide anything like extra--
57:55
helped to achieve that that applies not
57:57
just to Indonesia but also to most of
58:00
Southeast Asia and and as I said the
58:06
capitalist system overall was already
58:08
indifferent and I think just finished
58:11
old mr. Surya every US too long but to
58:15
make the point that this Kovach pandemic
58:19
has driven the world economy through an
58:21
unparalleled slump but already the world
58:25
economy was slowing down already the
58:27
profitability of the major sectors of
58:29
the capitalist Burghley economy was at
58:32
very low notes we were in a long
58:34
depressed rate of profit and growth and
58:37
production for the major economies
58:39
before the Cova came and that means
58:42
unless there's an matic increase in the
58:44
profitability of the captain is sector
58:46
internationally it'll be a real struggle
58:48
to get out of this slump it will make it
58:52
very very much more difficult to achieve
58:54
or return to any sort anything like what
58:57
my normal in Indonesia or anywhere else
59:00
not normal for the majority of the
59:02
popular
59:03
and even normal for catalyst friends
59:07
corporate profits globally were flat or
59:10
dead or zero or falling before the codes
59:13
been hit
59:14
this is a measure of all the major
59:16
economies corporate profits governance
59:20
of course economies and you can see
59:23
there or are they were in difficulty
59:25
before that so and we're expecting now
59:28
interesting Vegas fees that global
59:30
corporate profits that's the profits
59:32
that big corporations make around in the
59:34
major economies are gonna fall by
59:36
something like twenty five second so you
59:38
can see but that black line is going to
59:41
go further
59:41
well down to to the bottom below minus
59:44
twenty there in this coming year that's
59:47
going to be very difficult to recover
59:49
from and what it means is you get a
59:51
permanent loss of output
59:53
here's the IMF's estimate if you see
59:56
that black line running from 2018 for
59:59
lift right that was the sort of trend
60:01
growth rate but the global economy was
60:04
achieving before the Kovach hit and then
60:06
we get this the slant as a result of it
60:09
according to IMF it drops down from the
60:13
100 point in 2019 to 94 95 I think
60:18
that's before now and then they're
60:20
supposedly is going to be recovering but
60:22
it may not be a recovery which is
60:24
achieved for several years so will that
60:26
blue shadow there something like 12
60:29
trillion dollars which is equivalent to
60:31
something like 30 percent forty percent
60:33
of world GDP over that period of time is
60:37
lost forever you can't get that back
60:39
that's not returning to the previous
60:41
growth rate II think that's possible in
60:43
two or three years time still means that
60:46
all those jobs incomes products
60:50
resources have been lost to the world
60:53
during the period of the slump and its
60:55
recovery that's what slumps do people
60:57
forget those things then you come out of
60:59
it you carry on reform yes but the slump
61:02
means it's V or L or whatever that means
61:06
that cumulative output loss is not river
61:09
and it's not going to be a thing here is
61:15
the estimates made
61:16
be with things go well there maybe by
61:20
the end of 2020 for you'll be silly
61:22
recovering to some extent but if you
61:24
have a double hit
61:25
in fact you could go with a nude virus
61:28
out wave lockdown to continue longer
61:32
interim financial crisis as the result
61:34
in the slump
61:35
then there will be no return to this
61:38
previous trend growth which as I did
61:41
earlier for some of the lowest growth
61:43
rates we've seen since records began in
61:46
the last 20 50 or 60 years so a growth
61:50
rate we're back in the nineteen sixties
61:53
and seventies economies could grow
61:55
global economy is growing at 5% in the
61:58
nineteen ninety five or six percent in
62:01
the two thousand three or four percent
62:03
after the global financial crash where
62:07
the economy was growing at about two to
62:09
three percent now we're not going to see
62:11
that trend growth rate and more we're
62:14
going to be in a position where it's
62:16
basically way lower than any as it were
62:19
a very low investment rate this is the
62:23
investment rate for all the major OECD
62:26
economies and that shows it how much
62:28
it's gonna fall in first was already
62:30
very low anyway and now this code would
62:33
start we're going to drive hapless
62:35
investment all of us down to zero so
62:37
there'll be no improvement no recovery
62:40
which will be recognizable to the
62:42
majority owners in order to develop
62:45
resources and improve social needs even
62:48
if that was fairly shared which is
62:50
course it isn't
62:51
and yet the operations of the big
62:54
multinationals and round the world are
62:56
increasing their debt to overcome this
62:59
so they have a very high level of debt
63:00
which means that they're in the position
63:02
where they could easily have
63:04
bankruptcies and indeed falses as any
63:06
rise in the debt servicing cost which at
63:09
the moment arise as a result there are
63:13
any sort of recovery or inflationary
63:15
turns then you would be in a serious
63:18
situation from any company so what I'm
63:21
saying is you've had a supply shot at
63:23
perhaps introduction then you've had a
63:25
demand collapse and spending investment
63:29
now you could have a financial crash
63:31
because many companies go bust or won't
63:34
pay their debts and then the banks will
63:36
be in trouble again I in my book finish
63:39
on this sorry my book the long
63:42
depression I argued that what we're in
63:45
that since 2008 has been the depression
63:47
as opposed to recession you can see
63:49
three points of different sorts of
63:52
recovery after it's like the normal one
63:55
is a v-shape which is what most
63:57
governments are hoping for now and what
64:00
the strategists are hoping for sometimes
64:03
you get a w-shaped goes up the mid types
64:05
is again a 1980s or you get a depression
64:09
it's like a reverse square roots all the
64:11
way around for those you know basic
64:14
arithmetic the square looks like this is
64:17
a reverse sign on it
64:18
and you can see you don't return to
64:20
trade you stand and you never and that's
64:23
happened on three times in my view in
64:25
the history of capitalism the 19th
64:27
century we saw that the Great Depression
64:29
and low returns and showing grows into a
64:32
war began and now in the last ten years
64:34
or something soon it seemed to her about
64:36
two ends when you make a new leg of the
64:38
long depression where that trend growth
64:40
rate which you can see in the dotted
64:42
blue line before 2008 was replaced by a
64:45
new trend growth rate the first name
64:47
long depression the yellow dotted line
64:50
and then with these collapse
64:53
recovery we could end up on that red
64:56
line which is a complete new chip new
64:58
and lower trajectory and lost in between
65:00
the blue dotted line and the red line in
65:03
terms of growth is truly huge when is
65:09
the prospect for world capitalism and of
65:11
course that affects Indonesia there is
65:14
no escape for Indonesia they depend on
65:16
the world in particular and what happens
65:18
there so if world capitalist remains in
65:20
the depression that can only damage the
65:23
ability of Indonesian to grow to meet
65:27
the needs of its huge population already
65:30
the unequal inequality of wealth and
65:33
Incans there
65:34
this will only tend to get worse and the
65:37
lowest majority of the population will
65:39
fail to see any prosperity out of
65:41
Indonesia
65:42
if that's it's a how the situation
65:44
continues that's it for me
65:57
I finished can be your turn now
66:05
oh sorry I thought that Surya will make
66:09
some introduction for so thank you
66:12
Surya and Michael for the presentation
66:14
and I hope that my presentation won't be
66:17
repeat much from all of the you guys
66:21
because yet definitely some of the
66:24
content of my presentation has already
66:26
been saved in both of your percentage
66:28
and so basically what what I want to say
66:31
is more about politics particularly
66:34
about the politics of the capitalist
66:36
class Indonesia in the context of Penda
66:39
me right now so yeah I need to share my
66:47
with my where's my presentation can you
67:02
guys see it I think yeah yeah see you
67:08
need yeah I yeah yeah okay sure okay
67:16
thank you so so basically what happens
67:23
in Indonesia cannot be separated from
67:25
the optical character of Indonesian
67:28
capital state itself so there are two
67:31
main important traits that embedded in
67:37
the Indonesian skipper speed the first
67:40
one is the assertion legacy which
67:43
basically makes the state insulted from
67:47
any popular aspiration and these things
67:52
have been generated nurtured during the
67:56
Suharto orchard so heartless
67:58
authoritarian power and although
68:02
Indonesia successfully transformed
68:07
itself into a den of the speed this kind
68:10
of legacy
68:10
I did not really famous so after so hard
68:17
being tackled the structure the power
68:21
structure that sustained soeharto is
68:24
still there so that's why even we
68:27
already have this kind of more they're
68:31
more or less than the 21 years of
68:33
democratic reform we still have to face
68:37
this concrete material structure of
68:42
authoritarian the so-called Atherton
68:45
legacy in which the power of the state
68:48
being dominated by only merely several
68:52
twelve-hour whether you want to call it
68:54
as a capital space or oligarch yeah you
68:58
can say it as you wish and the second
69:02
one is related to neoliberalism so
69:05
basically after the 98 97 98 crisis the
69:11
very foundation of the economic
69:13
structure Indonesia transformed
69:16
radically which previously only
69:20
controlled by the state do the
69:22
authorizer and politics but then after
69:26
the crisis all of this structure has to
69:31
be transformed into more market friendly
69:37
economic structure so that's why we we
69:41
have this this to this to political
69:45
structure that really interrelated in
69:47
current Indonesia's capital speed and it
69:51
makes so that's why we have really
69:54
so-called ignorant lead in the top of
69:58
the government which basically related
70:01
to this legacy authoritive legacy and
70:04
the second one is we have this kind of
70:07
lack of public infrastructure because of
70:09
this neoliberalism and so that's why
70:14
during the crisis the government only
70:17
provide you can say insufficient
70:22
stimulus in order
70:24
to maintain the economic the economy big
70:30
in media the government provide four
70:34
hundred five trillion rupiah in which if
70:37
you convert it into the US dollar I
70:40
think it's around yet three hundred
70:46
million something like that and
70:49
unfortunately this stimulus is focusing
70:55
more on how to sustain the economy or
70:59
you can say the kappa's economy in
71:02
Indonesia so you can see that and there
71:05
are four main posts that really want to
71:09
be allocated in here
71:13
most of the post is related to economic
71:17
development although you can see it in
71:20
here is set 75 trillion rupiah and
71:22
hundred trillion rupiah if you see in
71:26
the detail in the document
71:28
most of the stimulus not necessarily
71:33
related to the livelihood of the people
71:38
so that's why the stimulus is really
71:42
insufficient to provide a comprehensive
71:44
and systematic social protection for the
71:48
people during the pandemic and this is
71:51
the result because we don't have a
71:54
comprehensive social protection we have
71:58
this kind of things where confirmed
72:02
positive cases for torna virus is always
72:06
in increasing and if you compare it to
72:11
other country the the situation is
72:15
staggering because basically in
72:19
Indonesia the will of the government to
72:23
provide protection is really low so you
72:28
can see in here the comparison number of
72:32
cop and men didn't pass for 1 million
72:33
population in one of them works for
72:35
fullest most populated countries in
72:38
is only better than Nigeria in which if
72:43
you compare in a economic scale is much
72:46
lower than Indonesia even country like
72:49
Pakistan and Bangladesh they are more
72:51
successful to provide protection through
72:57
through testing for their own as citizen
73:03
and what explain this discrepancy the
73:07
inability of the government it's related
73:10
once again and and I think Michael has
73:13
already addressed in here it's really
73:14
good to the money it's related to the to
73:17
the resource allocation right so if you
73:22
can see in here the proportion of public
73:24
and private health expenditure in
73:25
Indonesia most of the expenditure coming
73:29
from the private sector although you can
73:33
see in 2017 I make some mistake in here
73:37
sorry
73:38
in 2007 17 there is a quite significant
73:43
increase but relative to the total total
73:50
number the proportion of how xfinity
73:53
Indonesia is still dominated by the
73:55
private sector so that's why in terms of
74:00
infrastructure Indonesia
74:02
doesn't have let's say sufficient or
74:07
even necessary infrastructure that can
74:09
be used to protect their own citizens
74:13
during the hand of me and I suggest this
74:18
is this mine Oh opinion but in 2013
74:22
there's a there's a research on health
74:26
infrastructure Indonesia and I found
74:29
that there are three type of problem
74:33
that related to health into structure
74:34
Indonesia the first of all is related to
74:36
the numbers of the human resource
74:40
Indonesia so basically in Indonesia we
74:45
have a lack of number of general doctors
74:50
so if we follow the
74:52
it's an ER standard yet provided by the
74:54
w-h-o a nation should have 42 no doctors
74:58
per thousand a hundred thousand people
75:02
however Indonesia they only have thirty
75:05
three general doctor Perth a hundred
75:07
thousand Indonesians and also it's
75:10
related to the number of hospital so the
75:16
once again I just followed the standard
75:19
that dad provided by the whu-oh in here
75:22
so the ratio for the hospital beds
75:24
Indonesia is only around six point three
75:27
four ten thousand people this number was
75:31
far from the standard which a country or
75:35
recognition should provide 30 beds per
75:38
10,000 people if you want to be
75:41
considered as a nation according to the
75:45
standard to be individual standard and
75:48
the last one is problem of unequal
75:50
development in health sector you can say
75:53
that most of the health infrastructure
75:56
that takes place Indonesia concentrated
75:58
only Indian Valley other places like
76:02
Sumatra and Satara and and even Papua
76:06
they have really insufficient number of
76:09
of medical worker so that's why we can
76:13
see that in here the government or even
76:18
the state they don't have any they don't
76:21
have a instrument at their disposal to
76:26
to to handle this pandemic and it's all
76:35
has to do with their because in the
76:37
nation capitalism itself and so that's
76:40
why during this crisis we we have this
76:44
kind of two type of crisis that most of
76:49
the people will see it as unconnected
76:52
but I think it's it's really strongly
76:54
connected between each other we have the
76:57
crisis at the economy level economic
76:59
level and also the likelihood the
77:01
economic level michael has risen
77:06
as very brilliantly about how the red of
77:10
default of the red of the profit
77:12
economic growth and everything at the
77:16
formal national level Indonesia which
77:19
you can say that there's a strong
77:22
weaknesses in the initial economic with
77:26
govern in the logic of capitalism but at
77:30
the same time we have this kind of a
77:33
day-to-day crisis which related to the
77:37
unemployment declining income even the
77:40
the tradition of health among the
77:43
Indonesian population
77:46
so with this things in mind we have this
77:52
kind of cry struggle that takes place in
77:54
Asia the problem is the struggle occur
78:00
in a different way and it's related to
78:04
one important things and which I think
78:08
as Michael has already said about it's
78:12
all about this labor because profit in
78:16
capitalism always coming from the labor
78:19
and for the catalyst press the important
78:22
things is right now is to strengthening
78:25
the domination of the capitalists in
78:27
controlling labor of the working class
78:29
and the methods that they introduced in
78:33
here definitely by promoting several
78:37
pro-business legolas insulation that not
78:40
only strengthening the domination of the
78:44
capitalist class but also strengthening
78:47
the repressive apparatus of the class of
78:50
the state itself so you can see that
78:55
there are several new law that has been
78:57
introduced like the Omnibus law which
79:00
basically allowed that try to overcome
79:06
all law Indonesia that considered as
79:10
preventing any capital a commission
79:12
right now and the second one is mineral
79:16
and natural resources which basically as
79:20
a previous presentation before because
79:24
mineral and network resources is one of
79:27
the sector that important for an
79:30
Indonesian economy the capitalist class
79:33
needs to ensure that the accumulation
79:37
through exploitation of natural
79:40
resources can be takes place without any
79:43
any prevention any challenge from
79:47
particularly from from the people right
79:50
now so that's that's the type of the
79:53
class struggle that coming from the
79:54
Kepler space but also we have another
79:56
time of quest result that coming from
79:59
the working class hour and this kind of
80:06
struggle although they are quite obvious
80:09
but they are inert not really you can
80:15
say structure or even organized so more
80:20
of this struggle coming into more like
80:22
spontaneous way in order for the working
80:25
class to cope with the crisis there
80:28
happens because of the Penda me like
80:31
normative struggle at the factory level
80:34
this is quite used usual for the labor
80:38
movement in capitalist economy and
80:42
interestingly there are several type of
80:46
you can say in not necessarily new but
80:49
quite obvious during the during the
80:52
pandemic crisis like me
80:54
mutual eat or burn burning and also
80:59
several scattered mobilization begins
81:01
and the anti people legislation like
81:04
this omnibus law and mineral and
81:06
resources are so slow so you can say
81:10
that the working class there's some
81:15
resistance there's an attempt from the
81:18
working class at staff in order to
81:21
reclaiming their labour from the
81:23
domination and exploitation of the
81:25
current existing capitalist system that
81:30
explicitly Indonesia and
81:33
I kind of want to focus to the
81:37
experience of me
81:38
mutual eight because it is quite
81:41
interesting
81:43
because it tried to sorry it tries to
81:48
provide a new way of thinking about how
81:51
we can understand cluster the in
81:53
non-conventional way a although this
81:56
idea is not necessarily Neil it's
81:58
already been promote by tinker slice
82:03
Kropotkin but I think there's a
82:06
importance value that that we need to be
82:09
Hallett in here about the importance to
82:13
move beyond your own issue move beyond
82:18
your own sectoral ego and I found this
82:22
experience is quite illuminating in how
82:27
we can understand to move our agenda for
82:33
class struggle in uni so we can see in
82:37
here there are some cases like in
82:39
capital city of Jakarta where several
82:41
people organized scott funding campaign
82:44
to respond to support worker from in
82:46
informal sector and also some people in
82:49
Jakarta and interestingly although you
82:52
can you can say this might not have some
82:57
sort of political impact there's some
83:00
potential atif for political resistance
83:04
in here because once the government see
83:09
deported the capacity of the people to
83:13
organize themselves and create their own
83:16
political solidarity among the people
83:19
beyond their let's say sects are beyond
83:22
their limited region desert that's the
83:28
moment where the when the government
83:32
start to see that this kind of things
83:35
can be challenged so that's why in in
83:38
April particularly in the case of
83:41
people's foot solidarity the police
83:45
dismissed the general meeting
83:47
in in duplicada because then this would
83:52
be my speculation but I think this is
83:54
important to see that if the people are
83:57
capable to unite themselves that's
84:01
important possibility to become a real
84:04
pop political actor Indonesia and for me
84:12
this would be the general lesson that
84:15
needs to be addressed but by the lef
84:17
Indonesia because the problem in
84:19
Indonesia is about the lack of
84:22
confidence factor so when you are
84:25
talking about constructor right now
84:28
particularly charming from the working
84:30
class we have a lot of activity that
84:34
coming from the working class but the
84:38
issue then the struggle were too
84:41
fragmented - unorganized and too
84:43
spontaneous and I think we need to have
84:48
more coordination and unity and what I
84:52
mean in here is we have to start to
84:56
further push our movement beyond sector
85:00
and issue not only about labor issue or
85:05
environment issue or even only merely
85:08
about food issue like what happens with
85:11
the mutual aid so far but more broader
85:15
and I think this is only things can only
85:19
be happen but excuse me if the very
85:25
attempt to coordinate and unify all of
85:29
the struggle captured or organized under
85:34
some sort of political idea or political
85:37
program and the idea is not to merely
85:40
challenge the state but to provide the
85:43
program that can be promote by the state
85:48
and this is required I think a leftist
85:52
political party and yeah that would be
85:56
my short presentation because most of
85:59
the things you
86:01
has already presented here and I'm just
86:04
looking for a good discussion in here
86:07
thank you guys thank you very much
86:14
Reda perhaps you can stop sharing your
86:16
screen sorry yeah yeah good that we can
86:20
okay thank you very much at the moment
86:24
we have one question
86:25
my role yet he asked if the future is
86:31
looking so bad for the economy then what
86:36
is your guess or how capitalism will
86:39
save itself this time or will we be
86:43
drawn into mayhem perhaps you can take
86:46
turns to answer it perhaps which you
86:48
press Michael so if the future is
86:50
looking so bad for the economy then what
86:54
is your guess for how capitalism will
86:56
self shape itself this time or will we
87:00
be thrown into mayhem
87:01
can you hear what I say yes I can is a
87:05
very good question um and I think that
87:09
my will this new account of the states
87:13
of the world economy and world
87:15
capitalism and of course as a result
87:17
Indian capitalism could make you feel
87:21
like there is no hope and certainly
87:26
that's a question which my hand is taken
87:29
up discuss a bit later but what will
87:32
happen to capitalist well well how does
87:34
capitalism solve slums and crises that
87:37
it sells them basically in one way it
87:42
makes the workers pay for the crisis how
87:45
does it do that well it can do so in the
87:50
following way if the criteria for
87:53
capitalist recovery in terms of
87:56
production the investment and so on is
87:59
profitability capitalists don't invest
88:01
and they don't produce unless they make
88:03
a profit and more importantly the expand
88:06
investment or span expand production
88:08
unless the profitability of their
88:10
investments is rising as
88:12
shown profitability of investments is
88:15
very low but both internationally and in
88:18
Indonesia and then then we have to stop
88:20
but a slump often offers the opportunity
88:22
for charism to get out of a crisis it
88:26
means that workers are laid off from
88:28
jobs that they had before it means that
88:31
old weaker sectors of the capitalist
88:34
economy go bust so companies aren't
88:37
making any profit and blocking the way
88:39
for more vigorous companies that have
88:42
got perhaps more investment potential
88:44
can do an investment can be removed so
88:47
if you like you sweep away the weak you
88:50
reduce the income and living standards
88:52
of the majority from working people
88:55
partly by making it money employed or
88:57
holding interest down and in that way
89:00
the combination of that produces a rise
89:03
in the profitability we see at the end
89:05
of each slump there is a rise in the
89:07
profitability of the capitalist economy
89:10
whether it's a national one or
89:11
international question is how long that
89:13
will last
89:14
increasingly it seems more difficult
89:16
from capitalist economies to turn
89:18
profitability around and get it really
89:20
moving on a sustained basis that will
89:23
reach levels of growth and investment
89:26
and GDP incomes finally that we saw in
89:31
the sixties and seventies because the
89:34
remains very emergency huge slums can't
89:38
help to turn things around for
89:40
capitalism particularly of course if
89:42
workers have to submit to that slump
89:45
through the loss of jobs if workers are
89:47
unable to seize control of the company's
89:50
economy capitalist remaining control and
89:53
therefore after a period of time they
89:56
will be able to turn things around and
89:58
spare go forward again for a period of
90:00
time perhaps condos are being on a
90:02
relatively lower rate of growth and even
90:04
before but still able to survive Marx
90:07
one says we have say there is no
90:10
permanent crisis there's no way when
90:12
things just break down and that's the
90:15
end but the question is correct that if
90:19
profitability remains low even if it
90:21
recovers a bit if capitalism is weak
90:23
then will increasingly
90:25
see tensions not only between workers
90:27
and capitalists but also between workers
90:30
between capitalists and themselves
90:34
between China in the u.s. between
90:36
different countries struggling to get
90:38
the smaller amount of profit so that's
90:40
going to increase the tensions in trade
90:43
wars in technology wars and even
90:45
outright Wars what happens from Imperial
90:48
waters the result of capitalism not
90:50
being strong enough for everybody to get
90:53
a share of the profits and workers and
90:54
being forced into into struggles between
90:58
them over the available profit profits
91:02
that are coming out low profits we're
91:05
going to see increased trade and
91:08
technology and even military tensions
91:11
around the world which could lead to
91:12
serious the crust that's the sort of
91:14
mayhem which is on the horizon so on the
91:17
one hand capitalism will survive at mr.
91:19
workers remove it but capitalism will
91:22
struggle to get back to the prosperities
91:24
it'll retreat before and so we are
91:27
entering the 21st century where the
91:29
major danger is of the purest rivalry
91:32
and struggle between the major economic
91:34
powers over a smaller and smaller cage
91:45
thank you Michael
91:47
Reda do you have an answer yeah yeah I I
91:53
kind of think that we need to recall
91:55
Rosa Luxemburg argument about barbarism
92:02
or socialism in here because the only
92:06
things that we have if we fail to create
92:10
a strong alternative against capitalism
92:13
definitely beber is a right now and
92:16
Michael has already provided such
92:20
argument about the mayhem most of the
92:24
solution that provided by the capitalist
92:27
definitely will sacrifice the working
92:30
class and not only who the working class
92:32
but also even the environment and even
92:35
the life itself so so it is important to
92:39
to have a quiet clear and also solid
92:44
anti-capitalist alternative right now
92:47
but the question is who will provide
92:50
that right and it's definitely not not
92:54
the job of the capital is it of the
92:56
captains class it definitely is the test
93:01
of the working class and the problem
93:05
right now is even though the capitalism
93:07
or the capitalism itself is definitely
93:12
in the position of a weakness but the
93:16
power of the working class is more
93:18
weaker it's weaker than the witness of
93:21
the capitalism itself so we we have this
93:24
kind of dilemma in here and I don't have
93:27
any solid answer but I have some some
93:31
speculation that probably it there's
93:35
maybe some attempt that coming from the
93:38
working class itself but right now
93:41
unfortunately we don't have any clear
93:47
alternative that occur in our experience
93:50
so yeah my argumentation might be
93:56
not really optimistic but I do believe
94:00
that we need some sort of firm
94:07
understanding that the only way to
94:11
resolve current capitalist crisis
94:14
definitely not coming from the
94:16
capitalist itself
94:17
that's all how about you say that the
94:23
working class can I pick one woman who's
94:28
asking come on yet it's me
94:32
okay please doing for voicing your
94:41
description about in the Indonesian
94:44
government to handle the 19 I think it's
94:49
so narrow-minded I think because not any
94:54
one country in the world can handle
94:58
properly miss panda me even robots
95:03
country also England
95:06
it's very wars now how does government
95:10
handle this pandemic yeah but why for
95:24
the Indonesian now better then other
95:32
countries like India for example they
95:36
choose lock down is a solution order to
95:41
handle the fandom me but what happened
95:46
they abandon two million not begun
95:50
Walker without transportation without
95:56
what we what we call
96:09
Ellucian for the motor back it's not
96:12
happened in Indonesia because our
96:15
government not choose the permanent
96:19
lockdown for that is one example
96:24
Indonesian is back to her then another
96:27
country like India for example it is one
96:32
example that is why we cannot blame our
96:35
government like this like widows and
96:40
then your dad power sooo about the
96:43
coffee - I think I think this day making
96:49
it is 1 million people have already
96:52
passed by the government only 500,000
97:04
and then another comment that I want to
97:08
say in this forum for robear also and
97:13
then read or because they use the
97:36
analyzed but very less solution yeah
97:45
solution for the country like Indonesia
97:55
[Music]
97:57
capitalism the country in the periphery
98:00
of capitalism and this is the one of the
98:05
micro man another command how do you
98:09
think I think China is one of the
98:18
solution
98:20
for Indonesia to make a cooperation
98:23
because we are now actually we are now
98:27
in the same boat in this submission and
98:32
in China as one of the biggest economic
98:37
country now should make more cooperation
98:42
with the Indonesia and then there is no
98:47
one speaker talk about this religion it
98:53
is good or not or you are afraid to say
98:56
because many people may be Indonesian
98:59
people don't like China in this time but
99:04
in in my opinion China is one
99:07
alternative yeah to make it Indonesian
99:12
economy it's not dependent on with the
99:17
center of the capitalism what do what do
99:23
you think about this questions thank you
99:32
for your comments very perhaps you can
99:36
mute your speaker so in essence Amon is
99:40
saying that we should cooperate
99:42
Lanisha should cooperate with China and
99:45
there are some flaws or some mistakes
99:50
in the beta and the government in
99:54
government has done a lot a lot of
99:57
things and this situation is faced by
100:02
every government in the world who are
100:04
also facing similar problems so that's
100:07
one from Amara
100:08
so I think there's two here one is in
100:11
the essence is asking what's the
100:13
solution from us versus perspective
100:15
should countries such as Indonesia
100:18
cooperate with major economies such as
100:23
China even there Indonesia there is a
100:26
sentiment negative sentiment towards
100:28
China
100:28
so perhaps reader can answer because
100:32
Allah
100:33
a question about your data just now and
100:37
then about the China question napkin
100:41
robots can follow thank you yeah Thank
100:45
You Emma for the question that's that's
100:47
really important question but my my idea
100:50
in here is not really about analytical
100:52
the the reason why I pick Marxism as an
100:56
analysis in here is because it
100:58
definitely has really applicative value
101:02
I mean when when you are talking about
101:04
cost rather it's about the idea that it
101:08
much better for all of us if the
101:11
economic system is equal I mean
101:17
equal in terms of profit providing more
101:21
equal access to all people providing
101:23
more equal resource for all people and
101:26
when the state can be organized
101:32
according to that value it makes it much
101:37
better for us to live in that state so
101:40
the idea of Marx's of mid class struggle
101:43
it's not necessarily but this the
101:45
so-called of utopia or something that me
101:49
or something that really beyond our
101:53
imagination know it is really concrete
101:55
if you if the state can maintain the
102:00
interest to to be more equal to its own
102:05
people
102:06
it can much better for the on citizen
102:11
and in here when you are saying about
102:14
India is worse than Indonesia yeah I can
102:19
agree with that but India has really
102:22
important example that also needs to be
102:24
highlighted in here like in Kerala the
102:28
the so called the state of Kerala they
102:34
able to provide a really systematic and
102:37
comprehensive protection for their own
102:40
citizens because the state was
102:43
controlled by the working class right
102:45
it's the idea of
102:47
the Marxism in the idea max ISM yeah you
102:50
can say that yes I do Tapia there but
102:53
it's really practical definitely when
102:56
you have the state controlled by the
102:59
ordinary people by the working class you
103:01
can ensure that the state won't be
103:04
organized according the so-called of
103:06
logic of capital right so that's why it
103:10
happens in Vietnam it happens in Cuba it
103:12
happens in China and I definitely on
103:15
board with you we have we definitely
103:17
have to have cooperation with with China
103:20
I don't have any problem with that but
103:23
the issue then who's interested being
103:27
served in the state of Indonesia right
103:29
now and unfortunately it is the interest
103:33
of the capital that being served and
103:34
that creates the problem for us when the
103:39
crisis or the Panama kid the mission
103:43
since the state being dominated by the
103:46
capitalist West definitely the class the
103:49
state itself will be instrumentalize to
103:52
serve the interests of the dominant
103:54
class so that that's why Marxism in here
103:58
is really useful not only talking about
104:01
the economy
104:02
and I I think everyone will will know
104:05
that economy is for us is problematic
104:10
right now but it also provides some
104:12
solution I think and Marxism provide
104:15
quite clear solution that if you want to
104:17
have a better life better we have a
104:20
better society and if you want to create
104:23
a better society better create an equal
104:26
State and if you want to have equal
104:29
speed better to create a polka
104:32
organization that can have appropriate
104:36
state powers in accordance to that
104:38
agenda so that would be my simple answer
104:43
to a math question thank you thank you
104:46
Rita
104:47
perhaps I would follow up your answer
104:50
later because historically yep we have
104:54
sort of managed you know to challenge
104:56
even the largest imperialistic power
104:58
during early independence right
105:01
you know how it turned out but perhaps
105:03
robots can answer more all the questions
105:07
simultaneously yeah so is there a
105:10
reduction in purchasing power in local
105:12
currency rupiah bypass new rock mod if
105:14
I'm not mistaken as has happened in
105:16
Argentina and is the demand for wealth
105:19
tax obligatory now to help Nimisha our
105:21
base prices you have answered true tax
105:23
and I think people can read that also
105:26
the China question but perhaps you can
105:28
voice out your answer because this
105:33
webinar is recorded also so that people
105:36
can easily access it later
105:38
thank you Michael this is a very good
105:41
question by a mile and also by who was
105:46
originally asked a question about
105:47
Argentina all the global South economies
105:52
that depend on commodities have suffered
105:55
badly from trade and from outflows of
105:58
capital by the big multinationals and
106:00
investment institutions have taken their
106:03
money away and as a result the
106:05
currencies of these countries have
106:07
collapsed and that includes the
106:08
Indonesian Rupiah it's got quite sharply
106:11
but what Indonesia isn't quite in the
106:14
situation of Argentina where it's
106:16
basically defaulting on its debts
106:17
because Argentina has huge external
106:20
debts and dollars and has done so for
106:22
decades it's been unable to clear those
106:25
it's defaulted a couple of times it's
106:27
currency is very weak and everybody
106:29
switches into dollars so the last time
106:32
economy is in a much more serious and
106:35
difficult position than the Indonesian
106:37
one is but nevertheless all these
106:39
countries during the Kovan pandemic and
106:42
lock down in slump are now suffering the
106:44
question originally asked well maybe we
106:46
need a wealth tax to redistribute the
106:50
huge inequalities exist in Indonesia and
106:52
elsewhere
106:53
wealth and income I am sure that would
106:55
help all I would say is that he would
106:57
have to probably be international
106:58
because if one country introduces the
107:02
wealth tax in order to tax the rich the
107:04
rich will try to take their money
107:06
elsewhere to different countries and
107:07
they will try to hold the government to
107:10
ransom the world text which is why even
107:13
the best
107:14
meaning governments and they're not
107:16
really many of those because they're
107:19
more in the interests of multinationals
107:21
than they are taxing them even if they
107:24
do that they would to deal with the
107:53
major sectors of business control of the
108:12
country that the state controls
108:51
investment on the whole production on
108:54
the whole currency and and so we have to
109:09
ask us why as the Chinese mob led to a
109:13
massive increase in production and
109:15
output per year in China taking over 800
109:19
million people I'm talking about before
109:21
the World Bank sets no other countries
109:24
achieve that in here Indonesia has a new
109:27
chief
109:28
because they've got farm control through
109:31
the state over investment and planning
109:33
unlike other countries of course they
109:35
don't have democracy this is a this is a
109:39
dictatorship of a bureaucracy
109:41
this is repression people but then that
109:46
applies in many capitalist economies as
109:48
well the government operate in a similar
109:50
way so when I'm looking at the economy
109:54
and rather than the question of
109:56
democracy I can see that the Chinese
109:58
model works better and that's what
110:00
malice
110:01
I think it's suggesting what question I
110:03
think India neither had a chinese type
110:06
model in terms of the economy state
110:09
control and planning of the major
110:10
sectors of the economy it could improve
110:12
a lot of the people dramatically but
110:19
also you could only succeed eventually
110:22
by alone having full democratic
110:25
accountability and control that doesn't
110:28
exist in China so many qualities in
110:31
China are very hard like they are in
110:32
need but certainty if you're able to
110:36
reduce the inability the ability of the
110:38
Lower Valley and profitability to
110:40
cooperate in the economy and you can
110:42
invest for social profit make big
110:45
progress even in this world thank you
110:53
Michael
110:53
I would like to follow up the questions
110:56
here reader has suggested that Indonesia
110:59
needs to have a Left Party or leftist
111:03
oriented party and the history for
111:06
leftist party in Indonesia it's not a
111:09
happy history here was crushed the
111:12
admission Communist Party the largest
111:13
party Communist Party in the world in
111:16
fact if I'm not mistaken here and at the
111:20
moment the initial law still have lost
111:23
any party or any dissemination of
111:27
Marxist Leninist teaching in fact I was
111:30
a bit worried for this webinar
111:33
therefore I checked the law but I
111:35
decided since the websites of Indo
111:38
progress and then we have not so far
111:41
and leftist left-leaning websites and
111:44
left-leaning discussions although some
111:47
of the books some of these discussions
111:49
are still so-called ban or a lot or the
111:57
police came to disband the discussion
112:02
and came to confiscate the books so this
112:06
is the very real problem for for in an
112:09
issue right now which Michael might not
112:11
know so in the face of all these
112:14
restrictions I think it is still
112:17
fruitful to approach these problems from
112:22
leftist party angle or more towards what
112:26
you said mutual aid mass organization
112:31
which need not be a political party also
112:37
Michael is very interesting that you say
112:39
that
112:40
China is a non democracy therefore it
112:44
with even with all their problems they
112:46
have still have some progress here in
112:50
terms of lifting and their people are
112:51
poverty all there so what do you think
112:54
of the development of democracies around
112:59
the world you know like we have for a
113:02
so-called right now a lot of foreign
113:04
observers or an academics are saying
113:07
Indonesia is facing an illiberal
113:09
democracy and illiberal democracy so do
113:15
we
113:15
then question whether democracy is
113:19
beneficial or whether other models are
113:24
feasible like in China for example or
113:29
yeah perhaps you can enlighten us of the
113:32
reader perhaps really I can answer the
113:34
questions first aunty you readin well
113:38
my view we have to ask the question what
113:41
is democracy and the working class
113:44
around the world has struggled to get
113:47
levels of democracy what I mean by that
113:49
is free speech that we can have meetings
113:51
like this without police coming in
113:53
arresting us having dissident views that
113:57
also we can publish material to convince
114:02
people of our opinions to get changes in
114:04
policy without fear of arrest and that
114:08
we can demonstrate in the streets if we
114:10
need to do so that we can go on strike
114:12
in our workplaces if we feel that's
114:15
necessary and that we have the right to
114:19
vote in or vote out the existing
114:21
government officials that are running
114:24
the country for us those rights took
114:27
hundreds and hundreds of years in Europe
114:29
and around the world to achieve so
114:31
they're not to be dismissed but that is
114:34
not enough for real social democracy
114:37
because I don't know in the United
114:39
States they get to vote once every four
114:41
years between two part two millionaire
114:44
finance parties about how to run
114:47
companies and that's their only option
114:49
perhaps a similar situation in Indonesia
114:51
in Europe we get the option every four
114:54
or five years to vote for an outright a
114:57
capitalist supporting party or another
115:01
party which claims to be supporting
115:03
workers both actually wants to maintain
115:05
copies with those are the options we
115:07
have and when we get a vote once every
115:09
five years at one particular point there
115:12
is no regular democratic accountability
115:14
of our officials throughout weeks the
115:17
months or in our workplace workers have
115:19
no control of what's happening in their
115:21
workplace so we don't have real
115:24
democracy in any country and in my view
115:27
that would only be possible if we move
115:29
towards a more socialist model and that
115:31
includes China Chinese may have a much
115:34
more powerful economic model to take us
115:37
forward while we don't have worlds which
115:41
would be the best solution but it's
115:42
certainly not democracy people have
115:44
rested repressed put in concentration
115:48
camps as their dissident and so on so
115:50
everywhere there is a
115:53
let's finish on this point three and
115:56
meeting that with beef this intense
115:59
struggle between the cameras is going to
116:02
develop and if they're these stumps
116:04
continue to be severe of course more
116:07
tensions on the campus will dispense
116:12
with democracy in the countries that
116:14
claim to be liberal democracies we're
116:16
seeing that in the US were Trump flats
116:19
the law daily we've seen that in Brazil
116:21
where the president flats the law we've
116:24
seen there in Turkey worth basically the
116:26
polish any real democratic rights we see
116:29
that in Russia so the idea of liberal
116:32
democracies being the model that we
116:35
should sell ourselves firstly they're
116:37
very limited and Stephanie there grow
116:39
fast disappearing because capitalism is
116:42
prepared to get rid of them if they're
116:45
not working in maintaining its interest
116:47
and look for more autocratic methods
116:50
don't forget in the 1930s charism
116:54
resorted to outright fascism and
116:56
military dictatorships which taught a
116:59
world war to get rid of and also after
117:01
the war took colonial struggles to get
117:04
rid of military regimes run by purists
117:07
and in Europe to get rid of the military
117:10
regimes in Spain Portugal Greece and
117:12
Italy during the fifties sixties and
117:14
seventies so we certainly don't want to
117:17
say because liberal democracies are not
117:20
formed democracies that we don't should
117:23
forget about those democratic rights we
117:25
need to defend those democratic rights
117:27
and taking a much further hill thank you
117:33
Michael Reda perhaps I scheduled the
117:37
webinar two hours until 9:30 but if the
117:41
speakers are available we can continue
117:44
but if not we can finish 9:30 and also I
117:48
think there are no more questions I can
117:51
see but perhaps if they are more please
117:53
feel free reader so I'll repeat the
117:56
question here about leftist party and
117:58
also perhaps your idea your comment
118:02
about democracy I'll probably have to go
118:05
yeah
118:07
yeah you know okay so five minutes for
118:09
motorcycle five more minutes
118:12
yeah yeah okay so basically about the
118:16
leftist parties my I'm not really
118:19
interested about about the ideology in
118:22
here I'm just really interested about
118:24
the track practicality I mean as Michael
118:28
said before about the importance of
118:30
state nationalization the importance of
118:33
taking control of the main economic
118:36
sector what kind of instrument that we
118:39
can that can ensure that realization and
118:47
I don't see any possibility that's
118:51
coming from the mutual aid or mass
118:54
organization it has to be coming from
118:56
the state power and state power can only
118:59
be organized if you have political
119:01
parties if you have polka organization
119:04
so that's why the reason for the left
119:06
this party is not really about ideology
119:09
it's but from the material condition of
119:12
the struggle itself and the reason for
119:15
the importance of the leftist parties
119:17
regardless of this problem in Indonesia
119:21
it's still there right so if you if you
119:25
ask whether Indonesian can cope with
119:30
current condition where the states there
119:35
this allow leftist organization for me
119:39
it's a question of strategy and tactics
119:42
how we can outmaneuver SATs rate
119:45
regulation and if you ask me whether we
119:49
have right now leftist party yes
119:52
definitely there are several leftist
119:54
parties Indonesia but most of them can
119:56
be considered as illegal right now and
119:59
the idea is right now if you see from
120:02
the history of the leftist party all
120:04
around the world they always start with
120:07
step repression right
120:09
even the Bolshevik the obvious part of
120:12
Russia they start with the represent
120:15
that's coming from the Tsar so it's not
120:18
really unique to to our fraud
120:20
the question right now what can no
120:23
strategy what kind of tactics that we
120:25
want to conduct when we want to
120:27
establish our own leftist party that's
120:30
the real question are to put in Lenin's
120:32
question what is to be done
120:34
thank you very much me that thank you
120:37
very much any last words before we end
120:42
this meeting Michael wants to say
120:48
anything okay thank you very much I'll
120:51
contact you later through emails and I
120:54
will upload this into YouTube and I'll
120:55
send you also and have a good day have a
120:59
good weekend there Michael thank you and
121:01
thank everybody for coming thank you
121:03
very much yes
121:06
[Music]
121:14
thank you everyone Xavier and I let's
121:19
meet again in another webinar series
121:21
series by literacy coffee peace
0 Komentar